'Pakistan would like to wash its hands of Kashmir'
September 03, 2014
'I have never seen
the Kashmiris in a more conciliatory mood or a more defensive and reasonable
mood than I did when I went there in May. All of them said, "raasta
nikaliye."'
'Farooq Abdullah has said hundreds of times that the LoC has to be
recognised as the international boundary. So that is where the solution lies,
it lies on the LoC.'
'Infiltration is not the important thing. For me the more important
thing is what you're asking, "Pakistan ki niyat kya hai?"'
A S Dulat has spoken many times with Rediff.com on
the Jammu and Kashmir issue. He knows Kashmir better than any of his
contemporaries. Dulat, retired chief of the Research and Analysis Wing, India's
external intelligence agency, was then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's
advisor on Kashmir.
He is perplexed by the Narendra Modi government's stance to call off
foreign secretary-level talks and then the Bharatiya Janata Party's Mission 44
plan to win power in the J&K assembly election.
In his lucid manner, as always, Dulat, below, left, speaks
his mind to Sheela Bhatt/Rediff.com and it is something
India's policy makers must listen to.
The first of a two-part interview.
India cancelled foreign secretary-level talks citing the Hurriyat
Conference leaders's meeting with the Pakistan high commissioner. How do you
see the Indian action?
I was a bit surprised with what the reaction has been. Some people are
trying to tell Pakistan, well, either you can talk to the Hurriyat or you can
talk to us. Fair enough. I mean if this is how the government sees it and this
is what the spokespeople of the BJP have been projecting it. They claim that
this is a different BJP, it is a different leader and he is a decisive leader.
I think this point could have been made to Nawaz Sharif when he came
here at their very first meeting. After the two prime ministers met it was
reported that they had a very good meeting and the body language was good. And
they had been talking about each other's mothers and shawls and all that. So,
there was a certain bon homie. So why was he not politely told that we would
love to move forward?
As we told them about terrorism, he could also have been told about the
Hurriyat. Because I know that before Sharif came here, at that time this matter
was also politely raised that we hope he is not going to meet the Hurriyat
leaders. If he is coming here to meet the Hurriyat leaders it won't be nice.
So he obliged the Government of India. And for which he got a lot of
flak back home, I think he must have been hauled up by the army. Still Sharif
did what we expected of him. So I think the least that he would have expected
of us, I think the least we should have done is to have politely told him thank
you very much.
How do we know that it was not done? Some sources hinted that Sharif was
told...
If he had been politely told that I think we can discuss any subject
including Kashmir, but it is better if we keep the Kashmiris out of it, if he
had been conveyed that message, I don't think this incident would have
happened.
I am telling you why. Because what happened took everybody by surprise,
including our ministry of external affairs. The Pakistan high commissioner was
given 15, 20 minutes notice, that it is either us or the Hurriyat. If you tell
a high commissioner, what will he do? He can at best make a call to Islamabad
and ask what his option was. I think he was probably already late for his
meeting with (Hurriyat leader) Shabir Shah.
I feel that it is not a distinct meeting. It has not been an issue over
the last 20 years. It goes back not to Vajpayee's time, but to P V Narasimha
Rao's time, that is when the first opening (when the Hurriyat leaders met
Pakistani diplomats) took place. Why should we object?
Let anybody come, let anybody go. Let them go to Pakistan if they like.
We have facilitated it. Vajpayee facilitated their travel. They were given
travel documents to go to Pakistan, so what are we saying?
And when I say this, when I raise this issue with the current
government, then the answer I get is, that is history. So Vajpayee is obviously
history. And that is fine. If this is a new BJP, it's fine. But in the context
of what you are saying, I think in all fairness if anybody suggests that Nawazsahab had
been warned or sounded, then I don't know why they did this. Why would they
want to do this? I don't understand it.
Pakistanis can very well say that for them Kashmir is an issue and they
have been maintaining a certain contact. In any case I have another point in
this. What are we trying to achieve by this? What happens in such cases is that
a harmless cup of tea with these chaps is just a cup of tea, like (Jammu and
Kashmir Chief Minister) Omar Abdullah says.
Once you put stop to anything, it only goes underground. It becomes
clandestine. So is that what we want to encourage? Because that is what used to
happen earlier. Before Rao opened it up anybody going to the Pakistan high
commission and coming out was frisked. You know, security guys asked them 'Kya
laaye ho?' And people got caught with money, also!
And Rao said I think we should stop this. Let them come and go. So if
that is the idea that you want this whole thing to go underground, then maybe
Kashmiris will find other ways of going because most of these Hurriyat leaders
are now short of travel documents also. I think most of their passports are not
valid.
So, if there is desperation then they may find other routes or rather
ways of making contact. And also there is another thing. Quite unnecessarily,
we will attract international attention to this matter which is totally
over-settled, I feel.
It is not settled in the Kashmiri mind, Kashmiris still think there is
an issue, but they are willing to sit and talk. I have never seen the Kashmiris
in a more conciliatory mood or a more defensive and reasonable mood than I did
when I went there in May.
All of them that I met said, 'Raasta nikaliye (please find a
solution).' And they had very high hopes of the new government. It is a
disappointing thing for the Kashmiris, they had such high expectations of this
government.
(Hurriyat leader) Mirwaiz Omar Farooq went out of his way to
congratulate Narendra Modi. So I don't understand the whole this thing of
cancellation of foreign secretary-level talks. But if that is the decision of
the government, then that will be the future...
The Line of Control is again volatile. Lot of violations of the
ceasefire are taking place. There are deaths of Indian soldiers and there are
deaths of infiltrators also from the Pakistani side.
How do you see this increasing activity at the border? How do you see
the bigger Pakistan game-plan on the issue?
See this LoC thing, we hype it up a great deal. It has happened from
time to time. A lot goes on at the LoC which nobody knows. The realities that
nobody knows unless you are there, unless you are in Jammu and Kashmir, you
will never know what actually happens on the LoC.
There is always our story and their story. And these stories will never
match. When you talk of infiltration, the figures of the army, the paramilitary
forces, the J&K police and the Intelligence Bureau never match. So let us
not only talk about that.
The question is that if there has been more killing on the LoC, which
happens from time to time, it only means that both sides are more geared up for
action.
You shoot, we'll shoot. We'll shoot, you shoot. That happens. So there
will be more killings. Then it calms down. Because at the end of it, the
question comes -- why are you killing each other? It is a pointless exercise.
But yeah, it does get heightened from time to time.
There is some provocation, it is very difficult to say which side the
provocation comes from. Each side blames the other.
What is the bigger game-plan?
The bigger plan is like this. Whenever we talk of infiltration, somebody
who has watched this thing for 25 years, I don't pay too much attention to it
or I don't worry too much about this. Because, this coming and going through
borders keeps happening. For me -- and I used to say this even in 2001-2002
when the Americans and Westerners came and asked 'Is the infiltration up and is
the infiltration down?' -- we used to say that it is sometimes up and sometimes
down.
But I said that that is not the important thing. For me, the more
important thing is what you are asking, Pakistan ki niyat kya hai (What
is Pakistan's intention)? What is the Pakistani design?
Now my impression is -- please correct me if I am wrong -- that every
Pakistani politician, in the last few years, from Asif Ali Zardari to Nawaz
Sharif to Imran Khan, nobody has uttered a single word which we could call
provocative. They have been very conciliatory on Kashmir.
Pakistan, I think, understands, like the Kashmiris, that the game is up
in Kashmir. There is now, apart from just killing innocent people, there is
nothing to be gained. But Pakistan wants to maintain this at a certain level.
So that if the need arises, you can always create an incident. They have that
capability. Whether they infiltrate or not.
Even if they don't infiltrate, there will be boys in the valley who will
do it for them. Whether they are from Sopore or Tral, or Shopian, there are
these bad pockets. There are boys available there who will do something if
required.
But as the larger game-plan, I think that Pakistan would like to wash
its hands of Kashmir. They are not gaining anything and they would like to find
a via media.
Pervez Musharraf went quite far on this, as far as any Pakistani leader
had gone, that four-point formula. Now we might not agree to the formula,
Pakistan also may not agree to it, but the formula is not a bad formula in the
sense that it is just making borders irrelevant, facilitating Kashmiris going
and coming and making interaction easier. It is not a big deal.
The ultimate solution, if you ask me, is what Farooq Abdullah has always
maintained. Let me say here that it is a pity that we have under-rated him.
There has been no more nationalist leader in Kashmir than Farooq Abdullah. He
has said hundreds of times that the LoC has to be recognised as the
international boundary. So that is where the solution lies, it lies on the LoC.
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